1977 – 1980
From Electric Gypsy To Marillion
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Mick Pointer
In His Own Words…"This photo is of Electric Gypsy (Doug Irvine – Bass, Alan King – Vocals, Andy Glass – Guitars and me), I’m pretty sure this is 1978.
As far as anyone can remember, late in 1977, while I was practising in my Mum and Dads coal shed (yep, they used to exist), our long-suffering neighbours had a daughter, that had just got engaged to be married, and he happened to be the drummer in Electric Gypsy. He was (sorry, can’t remember his name) was packing it in to get married, and it was suggested I audition for the band and I did and got the drum stool.
Tickets provided by Rupert Akerman – Thanks to Stephan BrüninghoffMe and Doug got on particularly well (I did with the other guys), but me and Doug hit it off immediately and had a shared love of the same sort of music and how a band should be and run at, so at some point in 1978 we parted with Alan and Andy and went about forming our own band and our own musical direction. Doug was reading Silmarillion at the time and I suggested that, it would be a great name for the band. So there you have it, band and music ideas in place, just needed the keyboard player and guitarist, no vocals required – Silmarillion was always planned to be an instrumental band.
With Neil Cockle on keys and Martin Jenner on guitar and the set written. We managed one gig at the Hambrough Tavern in Southall, London that happen to coincide with the riots… yeah, great timing, and we got out in time and that was it, no more Silmarillion (not going into details why) but I suggested that we should remove two letters from the front of the name, because of the two members leaving. But we would have ended up with lmarillion… that didn’t look or sound right, so I said Marillion.
We started the whole process all over again, which I’m sure, you have plenty details about, but I just wanted to point out, Doug Irvine was a larger part of the history, he never seems to get mentioned much, when I get the chance I do (did an interview with a Polish magazine last week and I did). When I spoke to Doug, he hasn’t followed what’s gone on much, but I think it’s about time, he was acknowledged… and “others” that like to tell you, that they formed the band – now you know they didn’t! With the exception of me and Doug… everyone else joined…"
Interview By Mark McCormac – 31.07.2019
This interview (YouTube) was conducted on 31.07.2019. It’s part of my new Marillion page on Facebook, Marko’s Marillion Museum, it’s an online living museum of the history of the band including solo projects, it includes rare photos, posters, records, memorabilia etc. Here, Mick discusses his early influences, how he became a drummer, Electric Gypsy, Silmarillion/Marillion, Doug Irvine, Fish, Mick Pointer Band and Arena as well as the music business in general and Arena‘s new album and tour. It was so much fun to do and Mick is a great interviewee. Enjoy!
(Mark McCormac)
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Fish
In His Own Words…"The band, when I was auditioning, was called Not Quite Red Fox. The drummer was school friend Gordon Feeney, who asked me along to audition, as their bass player George, who had a great voice, wanted to concentrate on his playing.
I auditioned twice, but never sang live with them. The closest, I got to a stage, was passing an acoustic guitar to Steve Moss at Aberdeen University in March 1980. The band said, that they liked my voice but thought, that I didn’t have enough experience. They told me to go away and join another band and when I had some gigs under my belt, that they would reconsider me. I was so pissed off at their attitude, that I went out immediately and found a gig with Blewitt in Galashiels with the sole intention of proving them wrong. It was Blewitt that gave me my first chance and set me up for the Marillion gig.
Not Quite Red Fox were heavily influenced by Genesis and Gentle Giant, and I still have a tape of them somewhere. They won a "most original name" contest in a weekly music paper called (I think) Musicians Only and played in a "Battle of the Bands" contest at Lutons Mad Hatters Nightclub, where George, the singer, came to the attention of another band on the bill that night, who were looking for a replacement for their bassist/vocalist. Yep! You got it! Marillion wanted George to replace Doug Irvine. It never happened because they didn’t know how to contact him.
In late 80 George had a bad car accident and smashed up his arm and fingers. He disappeared with a bad drink problem. Gordon joined a number of progressive bands, after giving up the dream of being the next Budgie (he was a big Banshees fan) and even auditioned for Marillion, before Jonathan Mover eventually took the drum stool temporarily. He had become very cynical toward the music scene and I still think, that he deliberately blew the audition. He was a great drummer and went on to join one of the Citizen Cain bands in the late 80’s. I never heard from him again.
Steve Moss, who was the main decision maker in Not Quite…, turned up at the Funny Farm Studio, to record with Avalon a few years back. Never has so much Humble Pie been consumed at one sitting. TBH, I had forgotten the 1980 incident, as so much had passed under the bridge since then. He was so embarrassed, it was embarrassing. I actually sincerely thanked him, as without the humiliation of those auditions, I would have never been propelled into Marillion. It’s a funny old world!"
Interview With Fish By Neil Gaiman, Knave – 1984
“At school I was very fat and people took the piss out of me, and that hurt. And I found, that if you turn it around, you can take the piss out of yourself and make them laugh, and you immediately become a character. The jester. I hated music at school – I was thrown out of the school choir. I drifted through school and got into forestry, through the romantic vision – the forester is a character. But then I found, it wasn’t something out of the ordinary. It’s just another shitty job. So I wanted to join a band. On paper, it was a terrible decision – I had a year to go on this forestry course, with a guaranteed job at the end… I though, right, I’m joining a band. All my friends and my family thought, that I was mad. It was a very hairy time. I spent the next six months doing auditions, and then in 1981 I joined Marillion.
And because I’d given up so much, I infected the rest of the band with my enthusiasm. I never actually sat back and thought, I was going to fail. That may seem incredibly arrogant and big-headed, but I never considered failure. I knew, it was going to happen. It was, as if all the confidence, I’d never had when I was in high school, suddenly reared up and gave me this huge push.”
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion Video Podcast – Fish – 20.12.2013
Fish talks in an Interview with Jeff Denis (YouTube) about the early Marillion days 1980-1983.
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Carol Clarke
Carol Clarke: Marillion In Words & Pictures (1985)"The story begins in Aylesbury, Bucks, at Christmas 1978, when drummer Mick Pointer formed a four-piece instrumental group called Silmarillion – named after the book by Lord Of The Rings author J.R.R. Tolkien. After only one gig, the guitarist left, and the band advertised in the music press for a replacement.
One Sunday morning in the summer of 1979, Steve Rothery arrived unannounced from Whitby, Yorkshire, and walked into the job. Steve was a self-taught musician, who’d previously played with a series of school bands.
A local keyboard player – Brian Jelleyman – came into the line-up in August, and Silmarillion finally began to take shape. They played their first gig at Berkhamsted Civic Centre on 01.03.1980, to a less than ecstatic response from the crowd. Undeterred, they agreed on a policy of taking every gig that was going, and chalked up a further 13 dates.
The line-up changed yet again in November with the departure of the bass player. The group, by this time, had decided to recruit a vocalist, so both vacancies were advertised in Melody Maker. Mick and Steve were particularly interested in one call from a couple of chaps in Scotland and duly sent the applicants a tape of The Web (instrumental). Fish arrived in Aylesbury several days later with all his luggage, a complete set of lyrics for The Web and a bassist called Diz Minnitt.
Fish worked his way through a variety of small and unsatisfying bands and an even larger number of unsatisfying jobs: a garage attendant, a student with the Forestry Commission, a tree surgeon, a dole office desk man and a quality inspector for garden sprinklers! Marillion, who by now had dropped the Sil, were pleased to offer the former lumberjack and his mate Diz the vacant positions in the band. They went into rehearsal straight away and played their first gig at the Bicester Red Lion on 14.03.1981. They soon came to the attention of a character called David Stopps, manager of the Aylesbury Friars venue, who helped them as support to John Cooper Clarke during Aylesbury Arts Week in May and helped arrange more dates on their behalf."
Silmarillion And Marillion – A Timeline
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Info Sources
- Infos taken from and/or compared with:
- The Web: Issue No. 1 – February 1982
- Bandinfo: Marillion – A History – 1982
- Mick Wall: Market Square Heroes – The Authorized Story Of Marillion (1987)
- Clive Gifford: The Script – An Illustrated Biography (1987)
- Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002 (2003)
- Jon Collins: Marillion Family Tree (1977-Present)
- Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish (2002)
- Mike Eldon: The Saliva Tear – A Look Into The Early Days Of Marillion, 1981 – 1982 (2006)
- Bill Frech: The Story So Far… – The Official Marillion Live Tourhistory (2016)
- Mark McCormac: Marko’s Marillion Museum
- Wikipedia
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Silmarillion
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1977 – Prehistory: Electric Gypsy
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981“The way I got the job in Electric Gypsy was, my next door neighbour had a daughter, and she was getting engaged to the drummer of Electric Gypsy, and she knew I played the drums,” tells Mick Pointer. “Her boyfriend was getting engaged to her and decided to leave the band, and would I like to audition for it? And that’s how I met Doug Irvine, I went along, auditioned it, and got the gig. Literally, it wasn’t advertised or anything. He, getting engaged to her, got me the job and started my career.”
Actually this was not Mick’s first job as a drummer, he had been playing with the local band Stockade for a short period the previous year. “I actually started playing with a couple of friends of mine. What started this was a couple of guys, brothers, Martin and Clive Butler. And they were playing guitar, both of them were playing guitar, in their living room, you know, that’s what most people tend to, and I think, they had been playing a couple of years, until they then decided to get a drummer involved, in what they were doing. And they just knew a guy that had a drum kit, in just the village, that I come from, and I went along, and I thought – this looks like fun, I would like to have a go at that. And I borrowed the hi-hat stand and a cymbal from him and got home and started playing with that, and about three weeks later I bought a better drum kit than he had, so I got the gig. So that’s how my musical career started. Before I was a huge fan, I was a great consumer of music, I’d listen to so much music, generally rock and progressive rock, and all that sort of stuff, but generally more on the rock side. Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, I was far more interested in that sort of stuff rather than Genesis and that style. It took me many years before I actually got into that sound, I was more of a rock fan than anything else.”
To make a long story short, Stockade didn’t last long. Clive Butler met a Dutch girl and left the band, and although it reformed with a guitarist, who was a friend of Martin Butler, and a bass player, who was a friend of Mick’s, they never got so far as to do a gig. So when Mick got the offer to audition for Electric Gypsy, he agreed, and Stockade split up. However, they didn’t part their ways as enemies.
At the time when Electric Gypsy took Mick on as their drummer, the band consisted of bassist Doug Irvine, guitarist Andy Glass and vocalist Alan King. After several months of rehearsals, Mick and Doug decided that the musical direction, in which Electric Gypsy was heading, did not suit them well. They were both interested in more experimental pieces of music. Furthermore, Andy and Alan were not determined to get a full time career in music, so Doug and Mick quit the band, to form another unit from scratch.
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
The 1977 line-up of Electric Gypsy included Alan King on vocals, guitarist Andy Glass, Doug Irvine (who founded the band) on bass and a drummer, whose name has long since been forgotten. Sparking a tradition, that would be upheld for a good five years, the drummer did not last long. Fortuitously, the drummer’s fiancée heard someone practising in a shed next door to her parents’house on Brae Road, in a village of Brill in Buckinghamshire. That “someone” was Mick Pointer.
The timing was perfect for Mick, then in a band called Stockade, formed some eighteen months before with an old classmate, Martin Butler. With Stockade going nowhere, Mick agreed to an audition with the Gypsies. He got the gig, left Stockade and his mate Martin on amicable terms and joined Alan, Andy and Doug. “We played rock, along the lines of Hawkwind,” says Andy Glass.
Mick’s optimism was short-lived. “They spend less time doing music and a lot more time talking crap and smoking dope all day!” says Mick. The Gypsies did play a few times, “Our big gig was at Stone Free Festival near Aylesbury,” says Andy. “Magic!”
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)
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January 1978 – April 1979
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981Together Mick and Doug formed their new band in early 1978, and they named it Silmarillion, just to put behind the unsuccessful past and mark the beginning of a new era. Silmarillion is the name of a novel by J.R.R. Tolkien, who is probably more known for his trilogy Lord Of The Rings and the novel The Hobbit. The story goes, that Mick, when looking for a new name for the band, just happened to have a copy of Silmarillion on his bookshelf, which he hadn’t read, and thought it was a proper name for the “new” band. So when critics, writers and music journalists emphasise the name Silmarillion and refer to its deliberate connection with the band’s style of music and their lyrics, it does not quite justify the band’s choice of name. No, they did not seem to be into Tolkien or Dungeon And Dragons, and they certainly did not sit down and compose soundtracks to J.R.R. Tolkien’s novels. After breaking up Electric Gypsy, Mick and Doug took on a keyboardist named Neil Cockle and a guitarist named Martin [Jenner] whose surname no one seems to remember today.
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
By early 1978, Mick and Doug decided to leave the Gypsies and form an instrumental ensemble. From Mick’s home base at Station Road, Long Marston, near Aylesbury, they recruited local lads Neil Cockle on keyboards and Martin Jenner on guitar. “The place was a complete mess. The only food on offer was the dead mice brought in from the fields by the cats,” Mick recalls. It was here, that the four-piece sought inspiration for a name. “We went through hundreds of names, I saw the Silmarillion book on the shelf and said, “Hey, how about that?” The name stuck.
The fledgeling band had high aspirations for its musical style. Explains Martin Jenner, “The music was inspired by a blend of Camel and Genesis. Neil had a string synthesizer (popular in early Camel) and played this to good effect on some of the slower segments and also to give that nice filling sound behind some of the stronger riffs. The Genesis influence came with things like song construction and most notably off beat timings.” The band then added its own stylistic preferences – Martin describes himself as: “A die-hard rock guitarist who likes to play Gary Moore-style solos,” while Mick sought to emulate his drumming hero, Neil Peart of Rush. Eager to take their message to the world, the Sils used a rehearsal studio in Amersham to write and rehearse an hour-long largely instrumental set, with Doug adding the occasional vocal.
In the middle of the punk wave, Silmarillion stuck to their style, and funnily they frequently used a rehearsal studio where Camel rehearsed. Mick: “Where we used to play was in Amersham, it was a rehearsal studio in Amersham. All the Silmarillion stuff was done in Amersham, and the tape of Silmarillion was just done on a tape-machine in the corner of the studio. I was a great fan of Camel at that time, and Doug was a great fan of Camel, and they were rehearsing next door to us in this rehearsal studio, and they were watching us one day playing what we thought was similar sort of music as Camel. And Andy Ward went on and took my place. Little did he know that the band he was standing there watching would be a band he would be joining within five years time. This is a very small world, it’s amazing.”
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)
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22.04.1979 – Hanborough Tavern, Southall
The exact setlist is unknown, but it included the following songs:
01 666
02 Still No Sign Of Land
03 The Silmarillion
04 The NecromancerIn Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981
With or without a set consisting of instrumental bits and pieces later developed into well-known Marillion tracks, Silmarillion, now with this quartet line-up, played their first gig in April 1979 at the Hanborough Tavern in Southall, England. For Mick, this gig will always be special: “I remember playing to a small handful of people at this gig, and amazingly the most unlikely people were enjoying it. When we were doing this, we were rehearsed, but not well rehearsed. Just the first gig of any band, and we were bashing away and playing, and these people were enjoying it, just people with tattoo’s, drinking their beers, clapping “very good lads, very good”. I’ll never forget that gig.”
The Hambrough Tavern will never be forgotten either, as it burned down during the riots in London.
In Mick Pointer’s words, Silmarillion was incredibly unfashionable, but decided to play just the style of music they liked the best: “When we first started Silmarillion, Punk was still happening, we were so incredible unfashionable (laughs), really unfashionable. I was amazed where all these people came from, actually, fans. I thought, if I like this style of music, there must be more people out there. I can’t be unusual here, and that was one of the reasons why we started to find these few pockets of people with long hair, while everybody had their hair stuck up like this (signals punk hair spike). But there were a few hippies still around, you know, and they really loved it.”
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
Finally, on 22nd April 1979, at the Hanborough Tavern in Southall, London, the band was ready to play. The gig was in support of punk band Robert And The Remoulds: Neil, Martin and the Remoulds‘ drummer all worked for the same company at the time. “We had no vocalist, so we played instrumentals only, all band compositions,” recalls Martin Jenner. “We had no strong vocalist in the band and had not yet auditioned a lead vocalist.” Despite a successful gig it was not the best of starts – not only was it the last that the four played together, but the next day signalled the start of the 1979 Southall riots, made notorious with the death of protester Blair Peach, following a baton charge by the police.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)-
Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Neil Cockle – Keyboards
Martin Jenner – Guitar
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??.??.1979 – Student Union Bar, Wickham
The exact setlist is unknown, but it included the following songs:
01 666
02 Still No Sign Of Land
03 The Silmarillion
04 The Necromancer- All written sources (f.e. Clarke, Collins, Wall, Nygaard) claim Silmarillion played only ONE show at Hanborough Tavern, Southall and then split up. In his interview below, Neil Cockle reports of a "couple" of Silmarillion concerts! Check it out at 18:22min!
- Source: Between You And Me – A Podcast About Marillion
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Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Neil Cockle – Keyboards
Martin Jenner – Guitar
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April – August 1979
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981After further months of rehearsals, internal problems in the band caused them to sack their guitarist and keyboard player. This time though it had nothing to do with a woman, but more obvious things as money and a certain mellotron, which in years time would make its famous appearance on the first Marillion album. Mick: “We actually found this knackered mellotron, and Doug he fixed it, and we got it working, it never worked perfectly. We had a bit of a problem. We had an argument with them about the mellotron. There was an argument over money and the pair of them sort of came from the same area, and Doug and I were living in the same house, and there was a split. I can’t remember exactly what the argument was, but I remember the mellotron coming back one night, and with silence they handed it over to us.”
That night, when Martin and Neil arrived to hand back the mellotron, was the last time Doug and Mick saw their early companions from the original Silmarillion line-up.
Without Martin and Neil it was time to audition new members for the band, and even though they had a mellotron, they first decided to advertise for a guitarist only, maybe thinking, that it would be easier to keep together a trio than a quartet. After all, Mick’s favourite band Rush had proved to be successive with drums, bass and guitar only, so why not follow suit?
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
Neil and Martin were both to leave not long after the Hanborough gig, with Martin the first to go. “We started auditioning soon after the gig and tried some (I thought) very good vocalists,” says Martin, “Doug and Mick were not happy with them, seemingly knowing exactly what they wanted. It was this slow forward motion to accept a vocalist and get out playing regularly, that helped me decide to leave the band.” Following his departure, Mick and Doug placed an ad in Melody Maker for a guitarist. Despite numerous auditions with good twenty hopefuls, nobody really fitted the bill until a young player arrived on a Sunday morning in August…
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)
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Info – Neil Cockle Talks About Silmarillion (October 2022)
- The keyboarder of Silmarillion – Neil Cockle – now plays keyboards in a band called The Mighty Bard. Look them up on these websites for info, tour dates and music samples: The Mighty Bard and Facebook – Thanks to John Highmore
- Source: Between You And Me – A Podcast About Marillion
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Marillion
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August – September 1979
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981The two-piece Silmarillion placed an advertisement for a guitarist in Melody Maker, and started to audition guitarists in the living room of the house where they now lived together. Having seen the advertisement, the guitarist, Steven “Steve” Thomas Rothery arrived from Whitby, at the northern side of the beautiful North Yorkshire Moors national park, one early Sunday morning in August 1979 to join the band. The story goes that Steve arrived out of the blue with his car trunk full of gear, because he was so determined to get the guitarist job, and so he had brought along his equipment right away.
Mick: “We advertised for a guitarist and I remember auditioning these guitarists, and then completely out of the blue Steve turned up at the house in his knackered car all the way from Whitby. It’s a hell of a drive from Whitby down to where we are, about 250 miles or something. He just sort of turned up. We never knew he was coming, and his friend Edwyn [Hart] came with him, I think that was the name of his friend. He came down to the house, and he was setting up his guitar stack, an Orange guitar stack that he had, and me and Doug sat there and watched, and he just played to us, and we just gave him the job there and then. “Okay, you will do!”.
He’d only been playing a couple of years. Steve was a late starter in playing, actually, in fact all of us seemed to be quite late starters in playing. Perhaps that’s a good thing, and none of us studied music. For some reason, he seemed to think that we knew he was coming. But I remember me and Doug not knowing he was coming. And we could have been anywhere. He’d driven all this way, turns up in this little village of Long Marston, and just gets his gear out of the back and plays. I cannot remember, I’m sure he stayed, I’m sure he stayed for the night and then drove back the next day, and then came back a couple of days later and stayed. He just moved in [laughs]. Yeah, he just moved into the house, and we had a guitarist. So the three of us, it was Doug’s house, and all three of us were living in this house together.”
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
“I had called, but they’d forgotten,” explains Steve Rothery. “I’d got up at six in the morning to drive down in my Renault 5, and when I got there, they were still in bed!” After the 250-mile journey from Whitby, Steve was raring to go, but as sure as Sunday morning follows a heavy Saturday night, he didn’t receive the warmest of welcomes when he turned up with a mate in Station Road. Reluctantly, Doug and Mick agreed to listen to Steve’s demo tape, but that didn’t help matters. “It wasn’t especially good,” says Steve, “I’d made it when I was playing with a chap called Edwin Hart; he was a huge Beatles fan. They weren’t too impressed!”
Despite the sleep deprivation and dubious start, Mick and Doug felt enough sympathy to let Steve come in and have a jam. “He set up his gear in the living room while we all sat there, bleary-eyed,” recalls Mick. It worked: “He was very impressive. We sat there and watched, he played to us, and we gave him the job there and then.”
Steve drove up North to consider his options, before long deciding to accept the invitation a couple of days later, on 19th August 1979. “It was obvious I was in a similar area of music to them;” comments Steve, “Pink Floyd, Genesis, Camel – but not Rush! I got the gig and just moved down. I kind of gave everything up for a bass player and a drummer.” Steve must have been convinced, considering the accommodation that was on offer. “The cottage didn’t have hot water and had mould growing on the walls,” Steve recollects. “I had to share a sofa with two cats!”
Steve’s arrival coincided with the departure of Neil Cockle, for whom the final straw had been, the rest of the band helping itself to equipment out his car. “We turned up for a rehearsal (the second time I’d been down from Whitby) to find Neil’s car, full of Doug’s keyboards, unlocked and with nobody around,” recalls Steve. “After a blazing row between Neil, Doug and Mick we were a three-piece!”
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)Doug Irvine
“I remember auditioning one guy who couldn’t sing (not that I could). I just drew the short straw and had to do my best. The guitarist auditions were more fun. I’m sure we had some people who ended up being well known, but Steve was best for us. We auditioned a bunch of keyboard players too, but Brian fitted best. I can still remember the first rehearsal in Gawcott, it was a magical experience. First time I had used my Moog Taurus pedals.
(Doug Irvine @ Facebook – 06.02.2022)
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October 1979 – May 1980
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981In October 1979 Doug got hold of his old friend, Brian Jelleyman, for the purpose of playing keyboard – and handling the mellotron! With Steve and Brian in the band, the quality of the material became better, their soundscape tighter, and they decided the time was come to add vocals to some of their material. Doug went from playing bass to singing as well.
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
Brian was no mean pianist, as pointed out by schoolmate and future band member, Pete Trewavas. “He had classical lessons and I think he was grade 8, he was good!” A few weeks later, following another audition in the front room of the cottage, the newly formed line-up went about developing and rehearsing a set. “The style we had already begun had started to take shape,” notes Mick. Concerned about copyright, and besides, it was “too Tolkien,” according to Steve, they also decided to drop the “Sil” from the band’s name. “Doug had Silmarillion painted on his case – all he had to do was paint out the Sil,” explains Steve.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)The Truth About The Spring Demo
Two demos of Marillion’s first line-up are known amongst collectors: the so-called Spring Demo and Summer Demo. All the songs listed below are usually assigned to the Spring Demo.
In general, a "demo" suggests the band went into a proper recording studio to create a (let’s call it) "audo-business card" for media attention, future gigs etc. Well… nice! But… naa! All wrong!
The so-called Spring Demo is actually just a rehearsal tape, captured at one or various rehearsal sessions (from October 1979 until maybe May 1980) on a mono cassette player and was labelled “Rehearsal – Doug, Mick, Brian, Steve”. The songs are listed in the following order:
01 The Haunting Of Gill House
02 Herne The Hunter
03 Alice (earlier take, Doug’s vocals are rudimentarily hearable)
04 Alice (Doug’s vocals can be heard clearly)
05 Scott’s PorridgeThe second version of Alice (No. 04) has a short snippet of Scott’s Porridge at the end, which is faded out after a few seconds. Then, the same version of Scott’s Porridge restarts and has an abrupt end after ca. two minutes. Alice (No. 04) and Scott’s Porridge were NOT played as a medley, a recording interruption is clearly hearable.
Obviously, the recording was made for internal purposes ONLY, but somehow made its way outside the internal Marillion universe. From that moment on, the title and various versions were "made" – by fans and bootleggers.
In Mike Eldon’s (long-lost) website The Saliva Tear his version of the so-called Spring Demo is listed in section “Live-Recordings” – without a title but with a date: May 1980. This seems to be an understandable reason for a fan-made title Spring Demo. But I’d like to point out the original tape has no date written on it!
(Andre Kreutzmann)Brian Jelleyman
"We did a lot of stuff at the cottage in Long Marston and at the Queens Head almost next door. I think Gawcott was also used before Diz and Fish joined? The Enid session [Lady Fantasy and Alice, June-July 1980] was a one off, they were very good and we spent more time there than booked. Looked after us well. Mick may have better memories."
(Brian Jelleyman, 07.10.2022)Doug Irvine
"666 is the only Silmarillion song I can remember but the Marillion songs (especially Alice) are still somewhere in my memory. I wrote Alice as a tribute to White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane. Time For Sale was influenced by Apocalypse in 9/8 by Genesis. Lady Fantasy was taken from an old Electric Gypsy song (with Andy Glass on guitar). I met up with Andy recently at the Cropredy festival, haven’t seen him for forty years? Gill House was the first song we wrote and I don’t remember the history of Herne."
(Doug Irvine, 04.09.2023) – Thanks to Stephan Brüninghoff- Invoice of a mixing session (?) – Thanks to Marko’s Marillion Museum
- Scott’s Porridge was originally tagged Scotch Porridge, then Margaret Gets Her Oats
- Alice was originally tagged Alice Through The Looking Glass
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Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
The band name transitioned. I joined Silmarillion but by the first gig the name changed.Brian Jelleyman @ Facebook – 26.03.2020-
Info
- Bandinfo by Darrell Foster Kirsop (Aylesbury) – Thanks to Marko’s Marillion Museum
- First ever Marillion T-Shirt, designed by Darrell Foster Kirsop from a draft by Mick and Doug
- According to Mick, only 100 t-shirts were made (in red and white colour)
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01.03.1980 – Civic Centre, Berkhamsted
01 Close
02 The Tower
03 Herne The Hunter
04 The Haunting Of Gill House- Support Band: The Chiltern Volcanoes
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- First ever Marillion concert, photos by Steve Rothery (left) and Doug Irvine (right)
Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
Heartened by the results of the studio session, the freshmen pushed forward, playing their first gig as an ensemble at the Berkhamsted Civic Centre on 1st March 1980. It was not the most comfortable of settings, remembers Brian, “I know it was cold, as the fog from the dry-ice machine didn’t stay on the ground where it was supposed to be!” The material included Close, The Tower and a couple of long-forgotten tracks, Herne The Hunter and The Haunting Of Gill House. The latter accompanied by explosions provided by Privet. “One of the flashes didn’t go off, so he scraped the contents into another one,” recalls Steve. “When he let that one off, there was a huge sheet of flame up my back, that nearly blew me off the stage! That was quite a first gig!”
On the performance itself, perceptions vary. Mick remembers little other than the reaction. “Some guys came up and said, “you guys are really excellent, you should be playing in London!” I thought, if he says that on the first gig… well!” Rothers’ rosy memories include no fewer than six encores. “Mind you,” he says, “That could have been because they were all stoned out of their heads!” whereas early fan, Mike Eldon, remembers the audience (which included an 12-years-old Steven Wilson, later of Porcupine Tree) as being less than receptive. Mind you, that could have been because the audience were all stoned out of their heads… At least a major milestone was out of the way.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)Steve Wilson
"In March 1980 at the age of 12, I was at Berkhamsted Civic Centre, just up the road from where I lived in Hemel Hempstead, to see local punk group The Chiltern Volcanoes. Unbeknownst to me, the band were the opening act for another local band playing their FIRST EVER show. This band was called Marillion. I was one of about 20 people to witness their show, which needless to say I loved. How insane is that?!"
(Steve Wilson @ Instagram, 17.10.2020)
Photos taken from by Steve Rothery’s book Postcard From the Road (2016)-
Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
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08.03.1980 – Bogart, Birmingham (?)
Setlist unknown-
- Melody Maker, 01.03.1980 – Thanks to Barry Considine
- For the press they were still Silmarillion? It was more likely another band as Birmingham is too far away from the Marillion “local scene” and the bandname has an “e” instead of an “a” (Silmerillion)
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Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
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June-July 1980 – The Enid’s Studio, Hertford (Summer Demo)
01 Lady Fantasy
02 Alice- Hertford-Demo, according to Mike Eldon
The Script – An Illustrated Biography
Through the winter of 1979/80 Marillion put a new hour-long set together. A need for more exciting material resulted in Doug reluctantly laying down vocals. Brian Jelleyman remembers, how live sets weren’t too bad, but the studio sessions were “painful, trying to get Doug to sing in tune!”. Their first recording session was held at The Enid’s studio in Hertfordshire and featured songs called Alice and Lady Fantasy. The demo, they taped, was for their own use.
(Clive Gifford: The Script – An Illustrated Biography )Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
Following a few rehearsals at an old music shop in Hemel Hempstead and in The Queen’s Head pub a few doors down (also “the main venue for band meetings,” according to Brian), in February 1980 the band tramped off to The Enid’s studio in Hertford. “We were big fans, we knew they had a studio and did their own recording,” says Mick. They recorded a two-track demo tape for their own use. Remarks Steve, “It was quite exciting, my first experience of recording!” The session included Lady Fantasy and Alice, the latter would go on to become part of Forgotten Sons. Also present was Chris “Privet” Hedge, a resident of Lang Marston, who was invited to the rehearsals during a party at Station Road.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)Doug Irvine
"The first time we ever recorded properly was at The Enid’s studio in the cellar of the house in which they all lived. Started at 20:00 finished 08:00 the following day."
(Doug Irvine @ Facebook – 06.02.2022)Timeline-Inconsistencies
In September 2021 a 1981 demo tape named “Special Gold Edition” appeared on the scene. It was compiled by Privet at ITD (Independent Tape Duplications Ltd., the company he worked for at the time) and contains four songs: The Web, Close, Alice and Lady Fantasy. It’s Priv’s handwriting on the inlay, and he noted Alice and Lady Fantasy were “Recorded + Mixed at Enid Studio June/July 1980”. This info contradicts all valid/previous sources (f.e. The Web No. 1, Jon Collins) claiming the first demo tape was recorded BEFORE the first Marillion concert (1st March 1980). On the other hand, the production time “June/July” explains a demo title “Summer Demo” better than Jon Collins’ “February” 🙂
(Andre Kreutzmann)-
Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
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29.06.1980 – General Wolfe Club, Coventry (?)
Setlist unknown- Ad (still named Silmarillion) – Thanks to Martin Stassen
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Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
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March – November 1980
"There were approximately 14 shows played between March and November 1980. Most of the locations of these shows remain unknown. Confirmed venues are St. Albans’ Mental Hospital and the Watford Street Traders’ Fair. In addition, shows are known to have been played in Luton and High Wycombe. The exact dates and locations are for now, and probably will remain forever, a mystery."
(Bill Frech)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
After Berkhamsted, 14 dates were played between March and November 1980, including a Battle Of The Bands at the Horn Of Plenty in St. Albans and the Students Union in High Wycombe, where Doug’s girlfriend was President. Very early on, the band was keen to build a rapport with the people attending the gigs. Already, there were t-shirts, and before the performance the band handed out flyers saying, “We hope, that you enjoy the gig and will come and see us again.” A phone number was included, so that budding fans could call to find out where the band was playing next. Not the actions of a typical pub band. Things were going so well that by autumn, they looked like they could carry on that way forever.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)-
Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
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October – November 1980 – Leyland Hill Farm Studio, Gawcott (Close)
01 Close- According to Privet’s notes on the Special Gold Edition demo tape Close was:
• recorded from October to November 1980
• mixed in December 1980
Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
By [October] November the time seemed right to capture the compositions, that were working so well live. A session was booked at Leyland Farm recording studio, in Gawcott, near Buckingham. Leyland Farm was owned by Wild Billy Barrett, a frequent partner of John Otway (a regular at Friars). The studio was not ideal, recalls Brian, “It was the lower part of a converted stable, with the mixing desk in the room above.” This had the unfortunate knock-on of not being able to see the person you were recording. Recalls Diz, “I think we got free studio time there, because Mick worked a deal where they used his microphones in exchange.” Nonetheless, it was a serviceable studio and the first session there was deemed a success.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)The Extended Summer Demo
I found an interesting entry on Mike Eldon’s (long gone) website, The Saliva Tear: Mike lists two versions of the Summer Demo and assumes, Close was “recorded later on”. He just lists a song order of the second version – no date, no further infos, NO TITLE!
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- 01 Alice
- 02 Close
- 03 Lady Fantasy
Privet’s Special Gold Edition tape was compiled in late January 1981 at the earliest as it also includes the very first version of The Web (based on the Close-backing track, Fish’s lyrics were recorded 2nd January 1981 and the song was (re-)mixed 22nd January 1980). Maybe this tape was a “special edition” as it also includes a (then) newly finished song? Who knows? Before that, the Summer Demo (June – July 1980) was simply upgraded by Close (October – December 1980) – actually making the Summer Demo to a Winter Demo 🙂 Have you ever heard of a Marillion Winter Demo? No? Me not, either…
I emphasise this, because I think, the “well known” and widespread titles Spring Demo and Summer Demo are fan made relicts of the bootleg era. I doubt, Marillion used or created these titles! Is it known, that all 1980 demos were exclusively made for internal purposes, so there was no need for “bloomy” titles…
There is another interesting aspect concerning the… OK, let’s call it… Summer Demo: all (!) known “versions” of all (!) songs included in this tape – no matter if faster/slower, high-pitched/low-pitched, crappy sound/great sound – lead back to ONE source-tape! The most noticeable evidence is in Lady Fantasy (at around three minutes, in the beginning of Rothers guitar solo): the tape error! There is simply no other version of Lady Fantasy around without this error! So-called “different versions” are just a result of 80ties analog copying processes and belong to the “land of fairy tales”!
(Andre Kreutzmann)-
Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
- According to Privet’s notes on the Special Gold Edition demo tape Close was:
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14.11.1980 – Red Lion Pub, Bicester
Setlist unknown- Handbill, provided by Marko’s Marillion Museum
- Last show with Doug Irvine
- Doug Irvine and Mick Pointer (2017)
- Photo taken from Steve Rothery’s book Postcard From The Road
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Line-up
Doug Irvine – Bass, Vocals
Mick Pointer – Drums, Flute
Steve Rothery – Guitar
Brian Jelleyman – Keyboards
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November 1980
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981
High were the spirits, with the studio time booked, but suddenly, out of the blue, Doug decided to leave the band. Having been together with Doug since the first days of Electric Gypsy in 1977, and living on and off with him in his cottage in Long Marston, his break from the band was particularly hard to take for Mick. When Doug broke the news of leaving, Mick nearly knocked the band on the head. “I got on fantastically well with Doug. We just hit it off together musically, our ideas and how we wanted things to be. Doug got out of music because of a woman, it was one of the biggest shock’s of my life, when he did that. I must say, at the time I did feel like giving up, and I got to say, very much so, felt like giving up. Cause it was a major knock to me losing Doug, cause he was like my soulmate, really, but by that time I knew Steve Rothery and the keyboard player Brian Jelleyman was in the band, and as you know, we put the advert in the paper.”
Mick got to keep the mellotron, Doug only took their first ever demo tape with him, and apart from Steve Rothery coincidently spotting Doug at a Sainsbury’s car park about ten years later, none of them had contact with him ever again. Mick: “I also had a tape of all the Silmarillion music, and about two days before Doug left the band, he said: “Oh, have you got that tape, cause I want to listen to it”. And I handed him the only tape of Silmarillion music. I remember giving it to him. If only I had that tape! A lot of the early stuff from that period found its way onto Script For A Jester’s Tear. Doug left, I think it was around November 1980. I never saw him again after that day. He just disappeared. Never heard, never did anything, ever. It was really strange cause he was so enthusiastic, really, really wanted to make it, he always said: “If I don’t make it by the time I’m 26, I’m gonna give up”. No, it was women that did it, he met this girl, I think, at a gig we did in High-Wycombe, and he just disappeared.”
After a band meeting in the local pub they decided to carry on, they had nevertheless played a fair amount of gigs throughout the last eight months, and they felt they were on the right track to fame. The band situation was not the only one they had to master, though, because having lived with Doug, Steve was suddenly without a place to live. Luckily, their sound engineer Privet Hedge and their roadie Guy Hewison solved that problem. Mick says: “Privet had been with us since the Silmarillion days. There was a friend of Neil and Martin’s that bought a sound system, we had a mixing desk and a PA-system and things, and he wasn’t very good at using it, and I remember Privet, never used it before, but just seemed to have a very good neck of using it and managed to get a better sound that this other guy did, although it was his equipment. And I think Privet had a friend, I can’t remember who, but I think we got to know Guy via this friend of Privet. And Guy then moved into this house in Aston Clinton, and he shared this house with Privet, and Steve Rothery was living in that house. And that was the house that Fish and Diz moved into, when they first came down. I never lived in that house [Mick moved to 53 Quainton Road, Waddesdon].”
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
Guy had met the band through his sister Claire, who used to drink at the Queen’s Head in Long Marston, one of Steve’s favoured haunts. “I got involved ‘cos I was over 21, so I was the only one who could drive a transit!” remarks Guy, referring to the unreliable, green Commer van Margaret. Guy also mucked in as crew and booking agent and, remembers Steve Rothery, “He fancied himself as our manager.” As Guy rented the house by this time, nobody was about to complain.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)
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December 1980
In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981When Marillion placed their ad in Musicians Only, and sent out this tape, they attracted two young guys kicking about in Scotland, who were determined for a career in music. One was called Derek William Dick, nicknamed Fish, and the other one was more commonly named Robert William Minnitt, nicknamed Diz. They were among the people reflecting on the advertisement. On 10th December 1980 Mick Pointer’s girlfriend, Stef – who had once been Doug Irvine’s girlfriend – mailed out the demo tape with Close to Fish and Diz, who themselves had only been together in music for a short period, when they decided to apply for the jobs in Marillion.
So there they were, after having spent half a year together, desperate to get a band going, when Diz one day saw Marillion’s advertisement for a singing bassist in Musicians Only and together with Fish decided that this was just the band they had to be in. A band in the outskirts of London! They replied to the ad, and over the phone negotiations to split the free vocalist/bassist spot into two took place, as Fish could not play bass and Diz could not sing.
During December demo cassettes and letters were mailed back and forth between the two parties, and within a few weeks Fish and Diz got the okay to come down to the roadie Guy Hewison‘s cottage in Aston Clinton to audition for the jobs.
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Diz Minnitt – In His Own Words…
"Fish and I were living in Ettrick Bridge in a five bedroom holiday cottage called "Hawkshaw". We managed to live there after Fish had convinced the estate agency to open the cottage over the winter and that we were a band called Sirius (cue "you can’t be Sirius" joke here) who needed somewhere to write over the winter. The pre-Marillion version of Garden Party (just bass and vocals and very different to the later Marillion version – it sounded as good as this description of it sounds 🙂) was from memory included on the demo that we sent to the band prior to moving down to Aston Clinton on 1st January 1981."
"It was Mick that I called when I phoned about the advert for bass player/vocalist, and had the original conversation from the phone box in Ettrick Bridge while Fish was in the pub. As I only had one 10p piece I had to get Mick him to call me back, "Where’s Ettrick Bridge?" "Scottish Borders… but don’t worry about that". The trickiest part was initially convincing Mick that they didn’t need a singing bass player, what they needed was a bass player and a strong frontman/vocalist. Once we had that discussion it opened the communications, and we sent them a tape, and they did the same. Fish took over the communications (happy for him to do that)… although to be accurate Derek took over the communications as that is how I knew him until the point we joined Marillion, and he introduced himself as FISH 🙂"
(Diz Minnitt @ Facebook – 01.10.2020)"I have just found a copy of the original tape that we sent to Marillion:
No. 1: Fish singing along to Genesis: More Fool Me No. 2: Fish singing along to Genesis: Dancing With The Moonlit Knight No. 3: Fish singing to Jon Anderson: Take Your Time No. 4: Fish singing to Mannfred Manns Earth Band: Belle Of The Earth No. 5: Bass and vocals version of Guards Of Magog section of Supper’s Ready No. 6: Fish giving an audio biography of his previous experience as a singer. Interesting to hear the original shy Derek before the development of the Fish persona. This is followed by me giving an audio biography of my own musical history. It is clear that I did send down a recording of The Stone Dome Band and I refer to Fish as Derek throughout as he hadn’t yet fully adopted this. This then goes into Fish giving a history of The Stone Dome Band and the subsequent attempts to form a band in Cambridge, including the story behind… No. 7: Garden Party, bass and vocals only, and the story behind…(this version has echoes of The Institution Waltz) No. 8: Crystal Epitaph, bass and vocals only. This captures some of his common themes about life, including the line “son watches father scan obituary columns in search of absent school friends” as well as the harlequin reference, and he then gives the story behind what was at that point the “4th arrangement” of… No. 9: The Web, bass and vocals only. The introduction of the crying Jester… (Diz Minnitt @ Marko’s Marillion Museum)
The Script – An Illustrated Biography
In reply, Marillion sent a tape of their own containing versions of Close and Lady Fantasy. The cottage dwellers [Diz and Fish] were impressed by the sound but felt, the vocals were weak. Fish was particularly impressed with Steve’s fretwork, “I thought fuck, this guitarist is brilliant. I’ve got to work with him. To me, the tape had everything, that I thought I could move into and contribute to the point, that it would be a real band”.
(Clive Gifford: The Script – An Illustrated Biography )In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – Chapter Two, 1977-1981
So out they set on their southbound drive on 31st December 1980 to team up with the members and crew of the Aylesbury based band Marillion. Two wanna-be’s, pretending to be hotshots in the Scottish rock business, arrived in style the following day in Diz Minnitt’s Norton-car with The Stone Dome Band painted on the outside, just to add that touch of flavour to their dreams and stories – and to underline the fact that they had been in a successful rock band before.
(Claus Nygaard: In Shades Of Green Through Shades Of Blue – The Story of Marillion with Fish)Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002
The journey was a little more fraught than planned, as (according to Diz) the pair got rather lost along the way. Eventually they arrived at Aston Clinton, then Weston Road. “We turned up outside, and they all came out, thinking that we’d come for an audition,” remembers Diz. “We said, bugger the audition, we’re here and that’s that!” The residents were not so sure. Mick remembers thinking, “a big, loud, tall, arrogant Scotsman, just what we needed.” The band allowed the van to be uploaded before everyone headed for the Rothschild Arms, a pub a few doors down, to exchange rounds and pleasantries and leave the harder decisions for the days that followed.
(Jon Collins: Marillion/Separated Out – The Complete History 1979-2002)
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Melody Maker – 14.07.1979
Marillion – 1980
